Talk:Darjeeling

Figure 1

The diagram needs a couple of corrections. "Mount Herman School" (upper left corner) should be "Mount Hermon School" or "Mt Hermon School"; a little north of Ghum (should that be Ghoom, as in the third line of the third paragraph under Culture?) is the "Batista Loop" ... this should be "Batasia Loop".
The roads don't match what's shown in Google maps. South of Darjeeling railway station the three roads to the east are labelled Nehru Rd, Dr Zakir Husain Rd, and Tenzing Norgay Rd; Google Maps labels the first as Gandhi Rd, and the second as St Mother Teresa Rd (aka Dr Zakir Hussain Rd (note the spelling of Hussain) and Jalapahar Rd) which joins Gandhi Rd at Ghoom. Google maps shows no Lebong Park Rd. The road past St Andrews church seems to be NCC Rd.
Maybe show the watercourses (jhora) in blue? (This is the usual convention).
Tiger Hill is actually about 5½ km SSE of its marked location. Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 07:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much. It's quite possible that the set of maps I used as a model were older. The problem with some of the roads is that they change names as they pass into different stretches. The spelling errors, of course, are all mine. I will make the corrections, of course, but let me mull this over. Perhaps a schematic map with fewer details might be more appropriate with a clear warning that it is not drawn to scale. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

@Prisoner of Zenda: Sorry for not getting around to fixing the errors in the map. I won't draw a new map but will correct the more glaring errors. The "Batista" loop error shows that my mild dyslexia, brought to notice as a child by my mother when I was reading "Greyfriars" as "Greyfairies," is very much still there. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@Prisoner of Zenda: Hello. I have corrected the errors you have pointed out. Ghoom seems to be spelled Ghum on WP, and apparently officially in West Bengal. So for the train station I have Ghum/Ghoom; for the monastery I let the Ghum remain. It was in a cluttered label space. I've tried to correct the road labeling as much as I could. Nehru has gone; Zakir Husain is now Zakir Hussain and shares billing with Saint Mother Teresa Rd., Gandhi turns into NCC road in the north and joins Jalapahar Road in the south. Tiger Hill has gone! Move to an right-pointing arrow at the bottom, "To Tiger Hill." The springs are all in blue now. Well more like azure, but it seemed more attractive to me in the mood I was in. And Mt Herman of course is Mt Hermon. The change might not show in the "thumb" version just yet, but if you click on it, you'll see it.

In any case, here it is: File:Map of Darjeeling Municipality, Darjeeling District, West Bengal India.jpg If any errors remain, or if you have any other suggestions for improvement, please let me know. Thanks again for this extraordinarily helpful post. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and the Cuban dictator is now Batasia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the changes, Fowler&fowler - and for the humour! Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 11:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

TFA request

Putting this malformed request here, as no one will be able to find it in the future (listed at another article's request page):

• Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Political history of medieval Karnataka

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

And the blurb:

• Wikipedia:Today's featured article/August 15, 2022

We use one paragraph only, with no reference tags or alternative names; the only thing bolded is the first link to the article title. The length when previewed is between 925 and 1025 characters including spaces and (Full article...) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Gorkhaland movement in lead?

As of this version, the lead does not mention Gorkhaland movement. I feel this needs a mention in the lead, unless it is considered as a recenticism. Perhaps right after the sentence "Although their common language, the Nepali language, has been given official recognition at the state and federal levels in India, the recognition has created little meaningful employment for the language's speakers nor has it increased their ability to have a significantly greater say in their political affairs."? Fowler&fowler, please see. Thanks, --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Just added.That's an excellent point. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Added the adjective separatist before Gorkhaland movement in the lead.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:13, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Dwaipayan. I'm sorry but the modern sources we are using don't use that word. In Middleton and Shneiderman (2018), for example, "separatist" or "separatism." is used just one and that is in a quote from the 1950s, "separate" is used 46 times. We can't use "separatist," but we can parphrase their numerous authors including themselves, "a movement for a separate state of "Gorkhaland" within India." The Gorkhaland movement page itself says, "The Gorkhaland movement is a campaign to create a separate state of India in the Gorkhaland region of West Bengal for the Nepali speaking Indians." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

We can say, "These factors led to a movement for a separate state in India for Nepali-speaking Indians in northernmost regions of West Bengal." and link movement to Gorkhaland movement Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I've thought about it some more, Dwaipayan. There is a longish paragraph in history. I don't think a mention of Gorkhaland is warranted. The sentence we have is the best summary of that paragraph. I've very sorry, but we can discuss this further. I've removed Gorkhaland. In any case, the sentence had time-incoherence.

The paragraph begins with: Darjeeling's population today is constituted largely of the descendants of the indigenous and immigrant labourers ... to then start a sentence on history is confusing. I am deeply sorry for this. I should have paid attention earlier. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi! No issues :) I guess "separatist" is a term which has negative connotation, and hence could be sensitive. So, I agree with you (plus the fact that modern sources are not using that term frequently) not to use the term. It was likely used in media when the movement was portrayed to be more militant in nature, perhaps in 1980s.

Whether the mention of Gorkhaland movement should be in the lead: I still think it should be. We can postpone this discussion after the TFA appearance though. On the day of TFA, some editor may add it. Let's see. For the time being, let's agree not to rock the boat :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

We could say: .. nor has it increased their ability to have a significantly greater say in their political affairs, as pressed for in the Gorkhaland movement.

But then were are funnelling a general statement into something particular; someone might say the GM is only one aspect of the generally felt need for a greater say in their affairs. Becomes complicated for me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Let's not add it (Gorkhaland movement) in the lead, at least for now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments

• "The 20% drop from 1990 to 1995 was attributed in the study to India's economic liberalisation which came into force in the very early 1990s". Which study? No specific study is mentioned immediately before this sentence. Dwaipayan (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Dwaipayan are you talking about the last paragraph of Economy? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the last paragraph of economy Fowler&fowler.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:10, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The 20% is cited to Roy and Biswas (2017), who say on page 29, "Table 3.5 shows that the number of tea gardens decreased from 102 to 83 during the period 1990–1995, i.e., which is around 19 percent. Since, we understood that the year 1991 as the starting of a new economic policy that advocated the doctrine of LPG (liberalization, privatization, and globalization) policy. The new economic policy might have caused a decline in the number of tea gardens in the Darjeeling hills.

The next sentence is cited to Brown, Scrase, Scrase-Ganguly (2017) who say on p. 535 "The tea industry, which does provide some ‘middle-class’ positions in management and distribution, has been in continual decline in recent decades. Indian tea has performed poorly since liberalisation, being hit by price drops. In Darjeeling in particular, plantation owners have invested surpluses in other, more profitable industries outside of Darjeeling, leading to a decline in productivity."

Those are the two 2017 studies. I'm not sure why I changed 19% to 20%; perhaps I was thinking the numbers of tea gardens are small numbers, they went down from 102 to 83. This is not exactly the arena in which the battle for precision should be fought, even 19% is an approximation (i.e. it is better to be precise in things such as output in thousands of tons etc.) and also perhaps that 20% or 1/5th most people understand. 19% is a tricky one. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi! My comment is not about the numerical value. Rather, the text should read something like, "According to a 2017 study, the 20% drop is attributed to ...". In this version, the sentence reads "...attributed in the study to ...", but no study is mentioned in the sentence or preceding sentence. --Dwaipayan (talk) 03:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Good catch. Fixed now. The first was a 2021 study. Please take a look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

PS Noting that was for Dwaipayan Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:08, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

English pronunciation needed

Nice to have the Bengali and Nepali pronunciations in the first line of the intro, but the English pronunciation would be even more useful for English Wikipedia, especially for a TFA. Congratulations and thanks to all of have worked to get this article where it is. —  AjaxSmack  12:16, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Ajax Smack for the kind words. Let me think about it some more. I could put the English IPAs in a footnote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Can this also be addressed? Someone had introduced a dab link; I don't know which to pick. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Done. Linked to Classical Tibetan given that the etymology is linked to Sanskrit mythology Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, AjaxSmack, I've added the pronunciations in British and American Englishes and cited to OED (subscrip reqd). They are in a footnote immediately after the Bengali and Nepali. Please correct if you see any errors. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

user:AmazingJus Can we do /dɑ(r)ˈdʒilɪŋ/?

@Fowler&fowler: I would say that's a good compromise and many dictionaries actually use that format. However, Wikipedia only does not do that with rhotics, only with other consonants and only if they're in the same accent. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 09:39, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

The TFA

Darjeeling was viewed by 53,556 people on TFA day, August 15, 2022. The next day 11,865 people viewed the page. Here are the statistics relative to the other recent TFAs. Let's hope the one-day-limelight will have created more lasting interest in the page. (In relative terms the Royal necropolis article did best, but then interest dropped quickly soon after. Speed of light did better but than Darjeeling, but they've always had more readers) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Our one day average for the year ending 14 August was 1,094 page views So we jumped 50-fold (48.95-fold to be precise). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:47, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Hey @Fowler&fowler:, I'm Australian myself and when I interpret Wikipedia's IPA pronunciations I don't pronounce the rhotic r's at all. We only make the distinction between British and American English if they're noticeably distinct - like lieutenant: British /lɛfˈtɛnənt/ and American /luːˈtɛnənt/. According to what you put, the British/American pronunciations of Darjeeling have no difference except for the /r/ sound.

In regards to the South Asian Englishes, correct me if I'm wrong, but with local place names they would aim to pronounce it exactly how the local language pronounces it - which in Bengali has the /r/ sound.

If you want a specific pronunciation of a local South Asian accent of English, you might want to use square brackets instead. Hope this helps. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 09:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I saw on your user page that you are Australian. The problem here is that there is a slight difference in the "a" sound as well (as you no doubt know). Please explain the square bracket version. I'd be happier if some people such as user:Dwaipayanc, user:Uanafala, user:AjaxSmack, user:Vanamonde93, user:SandyGeorgia, and RegentsPark were a part of this discussion. I use AmE myself, so it's not a problem for me, but in the world of global Englishes to give an AmE pronunciation for a word like Darjeeling with a long South Asian and British history would be an unusual thing to do. For speakers of other regional varieties who both do and don't pronounce the "r", it might become confusing. Let's discuss this some more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:47, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies I meant user:Uanfala Also inviting user:Austronesier and user:Doug Weller Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler Sorry, this is way outside my wheelhouse. Doug Weller talk 10:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

We have: English pronunciation: /dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ (British Eng) and English pronunciation: /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/ (Amer. Eng) right now in a footnote.

AmazingJus would like to change it to only the second per a MOS preference ... and MOS does not allow /dɑ(r)ˈdʒilɪŋ/ Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

According to MOS:DIAPHONEMIC: "[i]f the pronunciation in a specific accent is desired, square brackets may be used". Also notifying User:Nardog — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 10:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah you can't link to Help:IPA/English and not use the conventions on that page. /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ already means "/dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ or /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/ depending on variety". The presence of the two transcriptions is redundant and pointless. Nardog (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I do not understand IPA, so cannot decipher the IPA pronunciation. In the local pronunciation, "r" is definitely present, and the pronunciation of "D" in the beginning is not like "D" as in Dog, rather it is a soft D, somewhat like "the". I will try to upload an audio pronunciation in Bengali (I am a native speaker of Bengali), in case that helps. The Nepali pronunciation is almost same as Bengali pronunciation (there may be very subtle, nearly imperceptible, difference).--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

A Bengali transcription is already there. We're talking about the English transcriptions (which are currently in a footnote). Nardog (talk) 17:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Nardog: Sure it might be pointless, but is the presence of two transcriptions prohibited? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:12, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

In the current from it is, because they link to Help:IPA/English but do not adhere to the conventions laid out on that page. Besides, our diaphonemic system exists precisely to avoid these kinds of repetitions, as explained plainly in MOS:DIAPHONEMIC. Nardog (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it’s pretty clearly stated on Wikipedia’s pronunciation guidelines that /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ covers both /dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ and /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/. If you don’t mind, I’ll change the pronunciation according to Wikipedia’s specifications. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 21:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that, based on MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, there should only be one English transcription here. However, as this is English Wikipedia, the positions of the English vis-à-vis Bengali/Nepali should be reversed, with the English appearing in the parenthetical of the first sentence and the Bengali and Nepali in the footnote. —  AjaxSmack  23:41, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Going one step back: do we need actually an English IPA transcription? While trying to predict the correct pronunciation from the spelling alone is hit-and-miss for many toponyms, Darjeeling is one those place names that 99% will get right even they have never heard it in spoken language.

But if we must have an English IPA, it should obviously follow Help:IPA/English and MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, since the actual pronunciation is trivially predictable from /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ for all major varieties of English. And if we really need this English IPA transcription, we should probably put it into one footnote with the local languages. –Austronesier (talk) 11:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree about the predictability of the English pronunciation for native speakers, but brought it up because the stressed syllable differs from the Bengali. I felt that only having the Bengali/Nepali could be misleading (e.g. "Oh, the name is stressed on the first syllable in Bengali. Maybe I've been saying it wrong all of these years.") I had planned to add the written Bengali and Nepali after the TFA was done and move all of the names and pronunciations to the Toponymy section. Something like this:

In Bengali, the city is called দার্জিলিং (Dārjiliń; [ˈd̪arˌdʒilɪŋ]) and in Nepali, दार्जिलिङ (Dārjiliṅ; [darˈd͡ziliŋ]). —  AjaxSmack  17:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

As it was I who added the Bengali & Nepali IPA's to this article a few years ago, I'm not particularly sure if the English IPA is really needed because Darjeeling to me seems to be non-counterintuitive name (as the spelling seems quite obvious to me) and is quite a common name given how well known it's tea industry is around the world and as per MOS:LEADPRON, IPA's should not be included for words which are commonly known to most English speakers or which the pronunciation is obvious from the spelling. On the other hand, the Bengali & Nepali IPA's are more suitable as Nepali is the lingua franca of the town while Bengali is the official state language and the pronunciation for them are different compared to English. However, as the recent IPA addition seems to indicate differences between American & British English, then maybe it could be kept as long as it follows MOS:DIAPHONEMIC (which it currently doesn't seem to do). Broman178 (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I've just tweaked the Bengali IPA because according to Help:IPA/Bengali, the dental diacritic is not directly transcribed even though the [d] is dental (the dental diacritic is only used if a language has both dental & alveolar stops which Bengali phonemically doesn't have) - the [d] in Nepali is also dental but doesn't have the diacritic - and there is no [ɪ] phoneme in Bengali (might occur as an allophone of [i] in loan words but not as a main phoneme). Broman178 (talk) 10:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

To all, but especially User:AmazingJus: I think I have a compromise. Please see the OED citation after Darjeeling, it has both pronunciations in the quote. But WP's pronunciation remains the US version. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: No worries, that would work. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 13:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Need for a map in the infobox...

The lack of an infobox location map for an article on a geographical location seems a bit problematic, and departs from usual Wikipedia practice and functionalities. It seems this was obliquely discussed in the FAR, mainly as a result of the problematic image crowding in the infobox [1][2]. I suggest that we restore a location map, and remove the two smaller images from the infobox as in this proposal, so that we have an infobox that follows normal Wikipedia practice (one skyline image, one location map) while respecting the need for minimum clutter. पाटलिपुत्र Pataliputra (talk) 12:26, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

There are six maps in this featured article. There is no need for a seventh that repeats in amateurish blankness what appears in professional detail in the history section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Added a less vacuous map and more compact one per the FAs Minneapolis, Winnipeg and others. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:50, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

City or town?

Does anyone know why Darjeeling isn't on List of cities in India by population or List of towns in India by population? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 00:31, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Kidnapping

What did transpire precisely? Is there any doubt that Campbell and Hooker were not kidnapped (say, were imprisoned as the result of some misadventure)? TrangaBellam (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't have my sources with me right now, but what I remember was that Hooker was an indefatigable botanist, who had been conducting expeditions with a small army of Lepcha porters, each of whom carried up to 140 pounds in specimens. It was during Hooker's (and Campbell's) expedition to eastern Sikkim, the permission for which had been murkily asked or murkily given, murkily translated, or all of the above, that Campbell and Hooker were arrested by orders of the Chogyal of Sikkim and then released after clarification, which may have taken a few days. (Imagine an army descending upon your sovereign lands and proceeding to snip off of this and that ...) Some among the British in Darjeeling thought it was a kidnapping, and the incident was used to annex the portion of southern Sikkim in which Darjeeling lay that the Company up until then had only been leasing.

Hooker must have had very good genes. Despite all his travels in conditions that would have daunted the lesser mortals of today, he lived to 94. Darwin, his good friend, in contrast was in shambles by his late 60s. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Improving our article on Hooker has been among one of the many things on my to-do list. E. C. Dozey who penned a fairly informative history of the district — notwithstanding a hefty dosage of racism even by contemporary standards — wrote:

Under the orders of Namgoway, the brother-in-law of the aged Rajah, and Dewan of the State, Dr. Campbell was subjected to severe indignities. He was bound hand and foot, knocked down, kicked and buffeted, and finally had his head forcibly bent over his chest with the apparent object of causing a dislocation of the cervical bones and death. This failing in its object, he was cast into a room measuring only 12 x 4 feet in which he was confined until December, 24th. Sir Joseph Hooker was placed under surveillance only, and not permitted to communicate with Dr. Campbell.

As no protest on the part of the British Government could obtain their speedy release, a punitive expedition was forced over the borders in February, 1850, the contretemps ending in the withdrawal of the allowance as well as the annexation of the whole of the district of Darjeeling which covers an area of 640 square miles.

That's some justification! I am reminded of Johnson's trip to Khotan and his changing narratives — from being kidnapped to being invited to forcing an invite — on how he ended up there.

Moving on to recent scholarship:

In 1848 Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal [the new diwan, who wielded increasing power in light of Tsugphu Namgyal's old age; Namgoway in Dozey's text] refused permission to Joseph Hooker, a noted British botanist, to explore Sikkim. Later, however, he granted the permission when Archibald Campbell, first Superintendent of Darjeeling (1839-64), threatened to report the matter to the British Government.

Towards the end of 1849, Campbell and Hooker, who had been travelling in Sikkim with the prior permission of Tsugphu Namgyal, were arrested near the Sikkimese-Tibetan border. Most Sikkimese at this time were for a policy of friendship with the British. These included the Tsibu Lama, who was the agent of the King of Sikkim in Darjeeling (1849-61). As he was unable to secure support for his action even from Tsugphu Namgyal and the Tibetans, Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal released Campbell and Hooker
— Rahul, Ram (2016). "Sikkim of History". International Studies. 15 (1): 21. doi:10.1177/002088177601500102. ISSN 0020-8817.

Fwiw, it appears that Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal was chosen at the first place due to anti-British inclinations given the unpopularity of the Namgyal's decision to lease Darjeeling which had not only caused much consternation among Bhutiyas having disrupted local trading networks but also brought significant umbrage from Tibet, predictably unhappy to find the Company at their doorsteps. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, @TrangaBellam: I did not see your post earlier. Am a little busy this minute, but will take a look at this in the coming days. Thanks for posting! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Official languages

As Hindi is an additional official language in the state of West Bengal and the GTA, I think it should be included in the info box. AtishT20 (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Please read the post-colonial history section, in particular the reference to West Bengal Official Language Act, 1961. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)