Talk:James Watson

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the James Watson article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4: 12 months

James Watson was a Natural sciences good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 3, 2011	Good article nominee	Not listed

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as High-importance).

United States: Indiana Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Indiana portal This article is supported by WikiProject Indiana (assessed as Low-importance).

Biology High‑importance

	Biology portal James Watson is part of the WikiProject Biology, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to biology on Wikipedia. Leave messages on the WikiProject talk page.BiologyWikipedia:WikiProject BiologyTemplate:WikiProject BiologyBiology
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Molecular Biology: Genetics

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Molecular Biology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Molecular Biology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Molecular BiologyWikipedia:WikiProject Molecular BiologyTemplate:WikiProject Molecular BiologyMolecular Biology
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Genetics task force (assessed as High-importance).

Chicago Mid‑importance

	Chicago portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Physics: Biographies High‑importance

	Physics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Physics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhysicsWikipedia:WikiProject PhysicsTemplate:WikiProject Physicsphysics
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Biographies Taskforce.

History of Science High‑importance

	History of science portal This article is part of the History of Science WikiProject, an attempt to improve and organize the history of science content on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You can also help with the History of Science Collaboration of the Month.History of ScienceWikipedia:WikiProject History of ScienceTemplate:WikiProject History of Sciencehistory of science
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biophysics (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biophysics, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.BiophysicsWikipedia:WikiProject BiophysicsTemplate:WikiProject BiophysicsBiophysics

Physiology Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physiology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Physiology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhysiologyWikipedia:WikiProject PhysiologyTemplate:WikiProject PhysiologyPhysiology
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
	This article has been classified as relating to the field of physiology.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence

The article James Watson, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:

Pillars: Wikipedia articles must be neutral, verifiable and must not contain original research. Those founding principles (the Pillars) are not negotiable and cannot be overruled, even when apparent consensus to do so exists.
Original research: Wikipedia defines "original research" as "facts, allegations, ideas, and stories not already published by reliable sources". In particular, analyses or conclusions not already published in reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are not appropriate for inclusion in articles.
Correct use of sources: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
Advocacy: Wikipedia strives towards a neutral point of view. Accordingly, it is not the appropriate venue for advocacy or for advancing a specific point of view. While coverage of all significant points of view is a necessary part of balancing an article, striving to give exposure to minority viewpoints that are not significantly expressed in reliable secondary sources is not.
Single purpose accounts: Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project.
Decorum: Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, or disruptive point-making, is prohibited.
Tag-team editing: Tag teams work in unison to push a particular point of view. Tag-team editing – to thwart core policies (neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research); or to evade procedural restrictions such as the three revert rule or to violate behavioural norms by edit warring; or to attempt to exert ownership over articles; or otherwise to prevent consensus prevailing – is prohibited.

If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first.

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4

This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

King's College Controversy

If there is to be a section on it, the section should aim primarily at James Watson. I read the section and have no idea what any of it has to do with James Watson. There may be some connection, and if so this section fails to convey it. The size of this section should be reduced to however this controversy applies to James Watson. All the extraneous details can be included in the Wikipedia Article on the controversy itself.2605:6000:6947:AB00:C4C5:C9EE:D9CC:FC12 (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the heading title to address this comment. The section deals mostly with Dr. Watson's use of Rosalind Franklin and Raymond Gosling's DNA data and their interactions, so the title now reflects this better. The prior title about King's College made little sense.Tensorsum (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rosalind Franklin?

Why is Rosalind Franklin given credit as the co-discoverer along with Watson and Crick in this article? Quite frankly, I don't understand why there's so much hype surrounding her when she didn't even take the photo that helped Crick and Watson achieve their work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:69C1:2A00:24A7:F40B:B1D:4E34 (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't edit articles based upon your personal opinions or lack of understanding. Your edit to this article, which would have deleted Franklin's name has been rejected. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But Crick's page does not say the same as this page and instead mentions how her studies helped Crick and Watson on their own work. I think calling her the co-discoverer along with them on this page is extremely misleading. In my opinion, the opening on Crick's and Watson's pages should reflect one another since they were partners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:69C1:2A00:64D4:1182:E8E:3C84 (talk) 00:29, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The statement that "Watson is best known as the co-discoverer of the structure of DNA with Francis Crick and Rosalind Franklin" just not true: he is famous for being one half of Watson and Crick. (The same is true for Crick.) I have amended the statement accordingly. 🝨⚬ʍP (talk) 01:16, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is an area that needs to be handled carefully, if the recent controversy over Donna Strickland is anything to go by. Rosalind Franklin did not propose the double helix structure of DNA, and Photo 51 was taken by Raymond Gosling, which is a lot like the situation with Jocelyn Bell Burnell, who was working as a postgraduate student when she played a key role in the discovery of pulsars, but did not win a Nobel Prize, causing much controversy ever since. Franklin's death meant that she could not be awarded a Nobel Prize, and the prize could only be awarded to three people. This has also led to controversy with people believing that Franklin was wrongly excluded from being named as discovering DNA. I agree with the edit removing the implication that Franklin proposed the double helix structure along with Watson and Crick, because this is inaccurate.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:04, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You need to be even more careful here. According to her Wiki. article, she was aware and published her conclusion that DNA had two helices. I'm not skilled enough in the art to interpret Photo_51, but it clearly shows that the DNA molecule has astounding symmetry. This symmetry severely limits the possible structures. Whether she should be credited as "co-discoverer" is a matter of definition. She seems to have contributed, her student Gosling (and the photo) certainly contributed since any proposed structure would have to take it into account. From Franklin's wiki. article:"One of the most important accomplishments of Maddox's widely acclaimed biography [of Franklin] is that Maddox made a well-received case for inadequate acknowledgement [for DNA structure]. "Such acknowledgement as they gave her was very muted and always coupled with the name of Wilkins"." These people were both competitors and collaborators, colleagues and enemies. From what Watson knew at the time, his failure to cite her work was misconduct, but is (was) that significant in deciding who should be credited? IDK.72.16.99.93 (talk) 18:19, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is well established that Watson and Crick used Franklin's work without proper attribution. As noted above, her work revealed the double helix structure of DNA. This is indicated in many external sources, and the details of it are also summarized in Dr. Watson's page. To accurately reflect events, his page does need employ active voice to state that Watson and Crick did not properly attribute Franklin's work. Reversions to a passive voice serve to unduly muddy this issue ("it has been recognized that Rosalind Franklin did not receive full credit for her contributions to the discovery of the double helix structure"). So, Franklin did not receive full credit from whom, exactly? Moreover, this extensive use of the passive voice to obscure the actor is simply not good writing.2601:280:3:9E72:95F9:9855:3DE5:7FA0 (talk) 14:23, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In October 2017, a vandal added Franklin's name to the plaque outside the Eagle Pub in Cambridge.[1] Less well known is the plaque inside the pub which credits Franklin's work.[2] It is important to avoid giving the impression that the April 1953 paper in Nature was co-authored by Franklin. The plaque in the pub says "In memory of Rosalind Franklin, whose exceptionally skilled crystallography enabled Crick and Watson to unravel the double helix structure of DNA. Tragically she died before the Nobel Prize was awarded. Her contribution was not fully recognised until much later." The wording on the 2005 sculpture at Clare College [3] has helped to correct this.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Various controversies and lack of reference to them in the introduction

Consider adding a "Controversies" section to this page in accordance with standard Wikipedia practice to improve organization, and note them briefly in the introduction. Dr. Watson's legacy is increasingly tied in both the popular and scientific press to the many controversies mentioned (and not mentioned) in this article. However, reference to these controversies are scattered throughout in a disorganized fashion, and there is no acknowledgement of them in the introduction. See, for example, articles in Nature magazine on Rosalind Franklin's discovery of the double helix structure (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature01399, https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02144-4?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20200723&utm_source=nature_etoc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200723&sap-outbound-id=797B8CD7A840B755135F8C22E203C84EA82398BF#ref-CR5). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.210.32 (talk) 14:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The pieces linked above (and BTW let's not call Nature a magazine) do not state that Franklin 'discovered' the double helix study. Franklin was one of the giants on whose shoulders Watson and Crick stood. And before I am accused of denigrating Franklin, I consider that had she lived, and had she never had anything to do with the DNA saga, she would have been fully deserving of a Nobel for her work on TMV. As for Wilkins: he was under the impression, due to a miscommunication, that he was Franklin's supervisor. When I was a research student (20 years later) my supervisor would regularly pass on details of my findings to others. It never occurred to him to ask me; and it never occurred to me to question it. This is how research proceeds. It's not a race - or at least it wasn't in those days - because we all had the objective of advancing human knowledge. That sounds a little quaint these days, I know. Cross Reference (talk) 16:14, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, see WP:CSECTION. Sections headed "Criticism", "Controversy" or similar are discouraged on Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:18, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Point well taken. No need for a "Criticism" or "Controversy" section in that case. However, the point remains that Dr. Watson's various controversies (race, Franklin attribution, misogyny, refusing to hire fat people) are scattered and disorganized throughout this long article. As another commenter has noted, like it or not Dr. Watson has gained considerable notoriety in the popular and scientific press for these issues and they have become central aspects of his legacy (see above references to Nature magazine and The NY Times, among many others).Tensorsum (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First Nobel laureate to auction Nobel prize

Didn't Leon Lenderman (physics 1988) sell off his prize before ? 2603:6010:B801:9C9E:51C:EB1C:E47D:C938 (talk) 07:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Watson sold his in December 2014, Leon Lederman sold his in May 2015.[4]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

lead sentence

I was reverted by User:Ianmacm with the edit summary rv good faith edit; this is already mentioned in the lead, and his primary source of notability is his paper on the structure of DNA in 1953, not the controversial views he expressed afterwards

First off, while reverting is always less constructive than talk discussions, at least you did post your arguments for doing so.

The "already mentioned" argument I find weak because if we always must follow chronological order then we can't put late "accomplishments" early in the lead. I don't think I have to rearrange the mostly chronological summary just to make sure the reader that just skims the first paragraph doesn't walk away with the impression this is a legitimate, respected scientist.

Your other argument I can absolutely agree his "primary notability" should be mentioned before any "secondary notabilities" so I'll make sure the Nobel Prize gets mentioned before the controversy that rightly undoes his legacy.

Trying again. This time, if anyone disagrees, I hope I'm engaged here on talk rather than wholesale reverted.

PS. While I agree we normally don't need references in the lead I personally believe exceptions are justified to avoid giving the impression it's just Wikipedia's voice overreacting. Regards CapnZapp (talk) 13:14, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The new wording is an improvement on the one that I reverted here. Watson's primary source of notability is and will always be the 1953 paper detailing the structure of DNA. From 2007 onwards, his career went downhill and he was stripped of his academic roles after making controversial remarks about race and intelligence. There is a need to comply with due weight, and not to overplay the controversy over race and intelligence.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:24, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]