Talk:History of Guyana

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Comment

Readers should note that the basic text of this entry has been lifted from the U.S. State Department's Background notes. See http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1984.htm A more accurate entry should reflect recebt revelations about the active role of the CIA in the late 1950s and 1960s in preventing Jagan from coming to power.

This is true, as the recently added link demonstrates, and it probably constitutes a violation of Wikipedia plagiarism rules. The article has been subsequently edited by myself and others, and I have attempted to correct what you indicate about the revelations (which are not so recent). --Herschelkrustofsky 14:31, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All material published by the Federal Government of the United States is in the public domain, and copying such material into Wikipedia is not a violation of Wikipedia rules. However, that does not mean that such material should be taken whole without concern for other facts or sources.--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting Information

The main article states that Christopher Columbus first discovered Guyana on his voyage while this article says specifically that he did not and that it was first discovered by that vespucci dude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.197.9 (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Complaints

It may be better to not have an article than to have a poor one.

1. Jonestown has negligible impact on the lives of most Guyanese, and is not deserving of a subsection.

2. Two sentences for the original Guyanese ?

3. Two sentences for the Guyanese slave rebellions.

4. "When slavery was abolished in 1834, the Afro-Guyanese refused to work for wages, and many scattered into the bush."

5. Indentureship should include a discussion of all the potential workers.

6. Indentureship and the impact on Guyana goes far beyond the Whitby. You can't discuss this without mentioning they had the right of return.

7. Inadequate coverage of the Burnham-Hoyte-Jagan-Jagdeo years.

8. Critchlow ?? 9. Post slavery labour strife, see Enmore martyrs and Damon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blakdogg (talk • contribs) 04:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be interested in working on this article -- and I agree that it could be improved -- but I have had trouble finding good sources. The only general history of Guiana I have found so far is Vere Daly's "The Making of Guiana", which is a school text book. If you know of other useful source works it would be helpful to list them here. Mike Christie (talk) 06:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Daly's "Making of Guyana" is one of the better sources on Guyana, primarily because it is unbiased. But it is older and I believe targeted at third form or lower students. Also unbiased would be the CXC Caribbean History texts, which are now the Macmillan Caribbean texts, Amerindians to Africans, Emancipation to Emigration and Decolonisation and Development. But these are difficult to obtain in the US and cover the entire Caricom, they are also new so I base my opinion on the prior texts. The Guyana Story is available online for free, but I think you get what you pay for, and would be wary of entries about the independence struggle.http://www.guyana.org/features/guyanastory/guyana_story.html. National Trust is also useful, but not information rich. http://www.nationaltrust.gov.gy/ . blakdogg (talk) 01:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the CXC books do you mean these?

I can't find the third one on Amazon, but I found the 1981 Macmillan texts cheaply on used.addall.com. Any reason not to get the Macmillan? Mike Christie (talk) 12:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they are better sources, including books that focus just on Guyanese history. But these are easier to obtain and cheaper. While I would expect the newer books to be better, I think the older ones should be good enough. So, no reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blakdogg (talk • contribs) 16:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I just ordered all three of them; I hope to get some work done on the article in December or January. Mike Christie (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I just completely replaced the article with public domain content from Library of Congress researchers. It needs to be shortened somewhat and wikified, but hopefully it's significantly more balanced and comprehensive now. Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, the prior version is at: Old revision of History of Guyana. There seem to be sources on offer that could be useful going forward. Cheers. Jack Merridew 06:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NO SPANISH SETTLEMENTS??

What about Santa Cruz, Aurora? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.12.233 (talk) 21:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the Sources/ References, reference points

This is a huge article with few sources. Huge swaths of information the size of the Amazon Rainforst seem to be be lifted without do direct, or numbered references.

You need to put reference if you are copying large amount pages of information form other sources ...especially when you are dealing with politics!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 23:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the sections on the PPP/ Jagan so large when compared to the other

For a party that was in power for a short time...according to this article they seem to dominate the landscape.

The Stalinist party or what became of the PNC that ruled for over 25 years, has less information.

The best parts about Burnham, and his party running the country into the ground was nonchalantly ignored ....a population living in fear, mass migration in the 1970's and 1980's, continuous manipulation of elections poles, mass failure of socialist economic programs and ideas, killing of a main political opponents...ALL CONVENIENTLY IGNORED/ OVERLOOKED.

If you're going to talk about race politics...you need to place it where it firmly belongs and where it STARTED FROM...with U.S/UK and its cold war obsession with Communism. THE START OF RACE POLITICS IN GUYANA WAS MANIPULATED, AND STARTED BY THE C.I.A....to destabilize the PPP government.

All the document are now declassified from the CIA files.

Also according to the article this country mostly seems to live and breathe politics. Was the population involved in other things besides politics in the modern era???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 23:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

I've acquired some sources, which I hope to be able to use to work on the article at some point. In the meantime I'm listing them here in case anyone would like me to look anything up in them.

Hope, Kemp Ronald. Guyana: Politics and Development in an Emergent Socialist State. Mosaic Press, Oakville, 1985. ISBN 0-88962-302-3.
Daly, Vere T. The Making of Guyana. Macmillan. No ISBN. Date not visible on my copy but post-1967 as the preface refers to a prior edition in 1967.
Spinner, Thomas J. A Political and Social History of Guyana, 1945–1983. Westview Press, Boulder, 1984. ISBN 0-86531-852-2.
Henry, Paget & Stone, Carl, eds. The Newer Caribbean: Decolonization, Democracy, and Development. Institute for the Study of Human Issues, Philadelphia, 1983. ISBN 0-89727-049-5.

-- Mike Christie (talk) 23:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Mike. I added these sources as 'see also' and cleaned a few things up. Thanks for the list. Cheers, Jack Merridew 03:59, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

History of guyana

Can you read for me 190.108.215.237 (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Split into pre- and post-independence history?

This article is getting quite long. How about splitting it into two -- the first article covering everything up to independence, and the second article covering from independence to the present? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good idea. I added a BUNCH of sources yesterday (and plan to add more today if I have time) and its pretty easy to find information post-independence. But some sub-sections like the "Political and social awakenings" clearly need more sources. Whoever edited the article over 2 years ago decided the Library of Congress report on Guyana should be used a bunch of times and it appears that a good amount of the text and/or information was taken from the first chapter of that! Once I'm done with fixing up the article, I'll let you know in a comment here. I'll post about this on appropriate WikiProjects as well, after I'm done. Historyday01 (talk) 14:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I also have several volumes of the UNESCO history of the Caribbean which has coverage of Guyana, so I can dig through those for more information. It would be nice after the split to pick one of the two resulting history articles and get it up to GA standard. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:33, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a great idea. I have a UNESCO book myself (General History of Africa VI Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1800s, Abridged Edition), but its falling apart. I added a LOT of sources in my recent edit, but the "Pre-colonial Guyana and first contacts", "Colonial Guyana", and "Political and social awakenings" sections could certainly use more sources too, at the very minimum. Historyday01 (talk) 00:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General note. I ALWAYS forget this code, but this section size listing may of help if a split happens:

Section sizes

Section size for History of Guyana (34 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	2,244	2,244
Pre-colonial Guyana and first contacts	3,834	3,834
Colonial Guyana	312	22,921
Early colonization	6,116	6,116
Transition to British Rule	5,577	5,577
Origins of the border dispute with Venezuela	4,561	4,561
The early British Colony and the labor problem	6,355	6,355
Political and social awakenings	39	12,552
Nineteenth-century British Guiana	4,766	4,766
Political and social changes in the early twentieth century	7,747	7,747
Pre-independence government	34	37,706
Development of political parties	927	9,675
Cheddi Jagan	1,532	1,532
Linden Forbes Sampson Burnham	1,697	1,697
Founding of the PAC and PPP	5,519	5,519
The first PPP government	6,326	6,326
The second PPP government	7,460	7,460
PPP re-election and aftermath	8,045	8,045
Jagan's ouster and Burnham's victory	6,166	6,166
Independence and the Burnham era	40	37,273
Burnham in power	8,579	8,579
The cooperative republic	11,789	19,485
Jonestown and the 1978 massacre	7,696	7,696
Burnham's last years	9,169	9,169
Hoyte to present	23	32,433
Hoyte and economic liberalization	4,584	4,584
Jagan's years in power	4,346	4,346
The Jagdeo years	5,075	5,075
Coalitions, oil drilling, and political instability	5,759	5,759
Disputed elections, ethnic conflict, and territorial disputes	12,646	12,646
See also	447	447
References	30	3,183
Sources	3,153	3,153
Further reading	3,484	3,484
Total	156,077	156,077

Historyday01 (talk) 00:35, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-Independence of the modern state was British Guiana, unless you go back to the Dutch colonies before that of Essequibo (colony), Demerara, and Berbice? CaribDigita (talk) 02:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as far as I can see there's no History of British Guiana article, so the pre-independence article drawn from the first part of this could be retitled to that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:35, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Just to be clear, the first part (which would be moved to History of British Guiana) would be all the content in the "Pre-colonial Guyana and first contacts", "Colonial Guyana", "Political and social awakenings", and "Pre-independence government" sub-sections of the present article, while the second part, which would remain in the article, and not be split off, would be the "Independence and the Burnham era" and "Hoyte to Present" sub-sections of the present article? Historyday01 (talk) 03:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I was thinking. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Good. I support the split then. Historyday01 (talk) 12:55, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thinking about it some more, the article on British Guiana is already a historical article, since it is about an entity that doesn't exist any more. The same is true for Essequibo etc. What would the natural breakdown of the history of the area be? I think there would be articles on the pre-colonial history of the Caribbean coast of South America; I'd have to look to see how many articles that would be, but it would cover the Caribs and Arawak. Then there would be an article on the early colonial history, probably again of the whole coast, with subarticles about the individual colonies. Then articlese on British Guiana and Surinam (Dutch colony), and finally the history articles on the modern countries. I think the post-independence material in this article should stay here, but the earlier material is too detailed and should be summarized to a couple of paragraphs. The sections from "Transition to British Rule" down to independence are essentially "History of British Guiana", but I'm now thinking that we should post a note at that page asking for opinions on whether to start a subpage for history or just integrate that material into the British Guiana article directly. The precolonial material in this article is quite short, and probably doesn't need to be compressed much, but if there is already a natural target article for those two paragraphs perhaps they could be moved there and summarized a bit more here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:39, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I think the earlier material could be summarized, while the bulk of the detailed information could be carefully incorporated into the British Guiana and Dutch colonisation of the Guianas (rather than into the Demerara-Essequibo and Berbice pages, as they may get too far into the weeds).

As I'm seeing, Surinam (Dutch colony) refers to a precursor to present-day Suriname, not what becomes Guyana.

Not sure if there is an article for the pre-colonial material or not, but maybe into The Guianas page? Also there is the page Guyana (1966–1970)... which is strangely short... I suppose it should exist, but some of the material from this article should certainly be added there to expand it. Historyday01 (talk) 16:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sheesh. This is getting complicated. Re Suriname: I just meant that the colonization period probably is covered by sources that talk about the whole coast, and perhaps because they don't speak Spanish or Portuguese, the two Guianas plus Suriname always seem to get covered by Caribbean histories, not by South American histories. I think it would be a good idea to come up with a list of the various articles that exist, and see if we can make a plan for what material should be in which article. Perhaps a table of articles with a column for "what historical content goes in the article"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ok. That makes sense. A table of articles with a column like "what historical content goes in the article" would definitely help. Historyday01 (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's start by just making a list of the relevant articles -- that is, articles that could be the main place some part of the history goes. That doesn't include the parent article, Guyana, for example, since the history section of that will just be a summary of this article. I'm also excluding History of French Guiana and History of Suriname because even though there is likely to be overlap for pre-colonial history, there's no way that any material in this article is likely to end up in those articles.

I've made this a tree and put some nodes in that don't have articles as a way to organize it.

The Guianas -- I think it makes the most sense to have this be a geography article, more than a history article, though it would have links to some of the articles below.
- It could have a child article Precolonial Guianas or something like that, to take the precolonial material.
Colonial history of the Guianas
British Guiana -- from its formation to 1966. Almost entirely history focused.
Guyana (1966–1970)
History of Guyana contains summaries of the previous material, up to 1970, when it becomes the main article.

To summarize, that means the material from this article would move to British Guiana, Guyana (1966–1970), and to either The Guianas or Precolonial Guianas if we think there's justification for that separate article. Did I miss any relevant articles? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that works. I don't think there is enough justification to have a Precolonial Guinas article at this time, as that section in the current article is pretty short (its only two paragraphs). Historyday01 (talk) 02:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update: @User:Snow Lion Fenian, since you were the one who appears to have proposed the merger of Guyana (1966–1970) into this article, I suggest you read the above discussion. Personally, I oppose a merger and would rather have that article exist, but with six paragraphs of content split off from the first six paragraphs of the History of Guyana#Independence and the Burnham era, into that article, as this article already has an issue of being too big. Does that make sense?Historyday01 (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]