Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music

Adding a new page on WikiProject Music

Hello, can anybody help me add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jolyon_Petch to this group?

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainamera22 (talk • contribs) 01:26, July 17, 2021 (UTC)

Symphony of Heaven notability

I am not sure about the quality of the cited sources other than that MetalOnSlaught seems to be closer to a blog. IndieVisionMusic or whatever it is, I'm not sure. Could you people comment ont he sources used in that article and if this band that started in 2017 could be notable before I send it to AfD? Graywalls (talk) 03:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Film Music Reporter

I have started a discussion about the reliability of this website, which is widely used in articles that fall within the scope of this WikiProject, at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Film Music Reporter. All thoughts are welcome. My hope is to come to a definitive consensus on the matter which can be recorded at WP:RS/PS. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of New York Music Awards for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article New York Music Awards is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New York Music Awards until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Mach61 04:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Creation of "Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs/Albums of All Time" Categories

I have proposed the creation of two categories, one for Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time and one for Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time. I was told that, given the scope of this endeavor (given that there are 600+ articles that would fall into each category), I should post here to discuss it further. (I'll also link to the Articles for Creation/Categories page here so you can see the discussion there as well – specifically linking my requests here: Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Categories#Category request: Category:Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time inclusions)

One of the editors on the AfC page pointed out that it was surprising that there was not already a category for RS's 500 Albums/Songs. I agreed with them, but it also made me wonder if there is a specific reason why there are no equivalent categories for these albums and songs already; has this been an idea that was rejected in the past? If not, and if there is no pushback against the creation of these categories, I would love to see it happen and get some help with page categorization! :)

BTW, if anyone does have any issue with this, I am also open to hearing reasons why this may not be an appropriate category to pursue creating. Afddiary (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-project-member comment) As a person who commented on the AfC/C page, I do endorse the idea of this category if there is no opposition. I am also ready in assisting of adding the categories using AWB if the idea is accepted. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really feel strongly either way, but it feels like there could be a valid argument that making a websites top list isn't really a WP:DEFINING characteristic... Sergecross73 msg me 17:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't have a particularly strong opinion, and was leaning towards accepting the request originally. However, I can't find other examples of similar categories, which makes me question whether it is WP:DEFINING enough. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And if it is a defining characteristic, whether we should make categories for other (popular) best of all time lists. And if we shouldn't, why should it only be Rolling Stone? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a problem with other "best of all time lists" having categories. In fact, if categories are created for Rolling Stone's lists, I'd argue it would be appropriate to create categories for the others as well. I understand there are a few similar lists of "greatest" songs and albums, including (but definitely not limited to):

NME's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time
1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die
1,000 Recordings to Hear Before You Die
The Pitchfork 500
(VH1 has a list of 100 greatest hard rock songs of all time (mentioned on the pages of each song, including its #1 entry "Welcome to the Jungle", but their list does not have a Wikipedia page.)

The reason I was surprised about the lack of categorization for the RS lists is because of how much attention RS's lists receive in the media (well, at least western media, from my perspective). However, despite the fact that I have long been aware of several other lists, the comparative amount of press and attention I see RS's lists receiving definitely eclipses what I see the other lists receiving. I don't really see the other lists as part of a cultural conversation around musical reception in the same way, although to be fair, that could be because RS repeatedly updates their lists, automatically forcing them to remain a part of musical conversations as each update gets released every few years. (I know the 1001 Albums list technically receives occasional updates as well, but I don't see its updates getting the same amount of press.)

I can also understand the argument that inclusion on the list isn't really a defining characteristic of each song (per Wikipedia:Defining). I don't know if RS's lists' level of notoriety works in favor of creating categories for them, but I did figure I'd mention it; however, looking over WP:DEFINING again, I'm wondering if it might be more appropriate to create an article containing a full list of each edition, instead of categories. As it stands, neither RS 500GOAT article contains a full list; the "Songs" article contains the top 10, and the "Albums" article contains no lists at all, although it contains statistics.

For whatever it is worth, the only place on Wikipedia where I've found a list has been the WikiProject dedicated to ensuring each of RS's 500 greatest songs has GA/FA status (as well as an equivalent WikiProject list for the 500 greatest albums – and I feel it is worth mentioning that each list only contains the most recently updated edition of each list, rather than the lists' original 2003/2004/2010/2012 iterations). Afddiary (talk) 22:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We would need to make sure creating an article with the full list is not a copyright violation. I vaguely remember that it may be, but I could be wrong. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm frequently reminding people of this. We should not be replicating other websites lists verbatim like that. If people want to read a Rolling Stone list, they should be going to their website, not Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 23:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, @Sam Sailor has created the categories Category:Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time and Category:Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. I was hoping to come to a consensus here first, but I suppose the next step would be to categorize all relevant pages unless there are any objections. We'll need to compile a list, check to ensure each page is the correct topic, and likely do an AWB/JWB run. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 16:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a risky move. Hopefully it doesn't get deleted after dumping a ton of work into it. I've seen it happen countless times with the video game content area... Sergecross73 msg me 16:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Been having a difficult time deciding how I feel about this. On one hand, probably no publication's lists should be considered defining, and we don't really need to collect that information because it can already be found published by that publication. But on the other hand, this list could be the exception. It is Rolling Stone after all, probably the biggest music publication in the world, and I guarantee there's plenty enough coverage of these lists out there to speak to its value above any other. For safety, I would probably lean toward non-defining anyway, but it feels like it's right on the edge.

However, it's also worth discussing the value of the category in terms of the information this list can provide. I'm not sure it's worth it just to load a category with >500 items (because different albums have been added to/removed from later lists so the grand total is over 500) without any further explanation. Were they on the first list, but later removed? How highly did they rank? A category can't tell us any of that info, but I'm sure the prose in these albums'/songs' articles already do, and I think that info is far more important than just blankly saying this thing appeared on this list at some point in history without any further context. What all is to be learned from that? Ends up just a collection of names for collection's sake methinks. For that reason, I wouldn't make the categories. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 00:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject for History of Music?

I searched the directories for wikiprojects: music and found nothing related to history of music. I also searched in the directories for History. If such a project does not exist, should we not create one? Sneakers McSnuggles (talk) 12:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that having WikiProjects focused on different parts of music history (e.g., ones for opera, American music, drum corps, etc.) is a better way to do it than something broad like all of music history. Unfortunately, outside of maybe four large ones, most music WikiProjects are underutilized as it is, so creating an entirely new one to divvy attention may not be the greatest strategy. Why? I Ask (talk) 13:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sneakers McSnuggles I did some research, and it appears that "History of <topic>" WikiProjects have a poor track record of success. WP:WikiProject History of science is still active, but other such projects are usually merged into the "parent topic" (e.g. History of Greece) or become inactive with time (e.g. History of Biology, History of Canada). Mach61 13:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As featured artist vs. Guest appearances

In an artist's discography, what is the difference between the "as featured artist" section and the "guest appearances" section? (example) Mwiqdoh (talk) 05:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The former are cases where the artist is credited as "featured"; the latter are cases where they appear and are credited but aren't "featured". It's generally as simple as whether that word appears. Some of the entries in Tyler's guest appearances section may have been misplaced (or their respective articles have mislabeled him as a featured artist) and could use a check. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 05:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@QuietHere: Two things:

1. What are we basing that off of? Genius? Youtube? Spotify? Apple Music? Because some websites say "featured" and others don't.

2. What about an artist appearing for one song on an album that's not theirs, but the song is completely made by them. For example: Waiting in Vain - Daniel Caesar was made for the Bob Marley: One Love movie soundtrack but the song is his.

Mwiqdoh (talk) 06:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Ideally, it should be based off the official track listing for the album, whether that is printed on a CD liner or record sleeve or found on a streamer like Spotify. Regardless, the source for this information will always be the liner notes, as stated at TRACKLIST and PERSONNEL.

2. In the case of various artist compilation albums such as Bob Marley: One Love (Music Inspired by the Film), we use a column for recording artists in the track list. If it was released as a single then it will be listed as such on an artist's discography page (e.g. "I Don't Wanna Live Forever" appears in Zayn Malik discography#Singles); if not, guest appearances would be the right spot (e.g. multiple soundtrack cuts appear in Kacey Musgraves discography#Other appearances). QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate it thanks a lot Mwiqdoh (talk) 06:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@QuietHere: I believe the reason why the Tyler page is mixed up because the "as featured artist" says "singles" and "guest appearances" says "non-singles". Should we remove those two terms and just keep it as featured and guest because it doen't make much sense otherwise. Mwiqdoh (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, no, that's exactly how it should be. My mistake. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 23:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question on Blackhawk (band)

In Blackhawk (band), Randy Threet was formerly a "real" member but is now credited solely as a member of the backing band. Since he's not a former member in the sense that he still performs with them, should he be listed as a current member in the infobox but with a footnote, as is the case now? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 20:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is Indie Vision Music unreliable?

Per Graywalls (talk · contribs) suggestion at the discussion, I'm soliciting input from this WikiProject. Is Indie Vision Music an unreliable source? Discussion is here at RS/N.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This was a pretty standard mid-level independent review site for a long time, though it never got formally evaluated at RSALBUMS. I've added it to pages in the past and am unaware of any good reasons not to treat it as generally reliable. Chubbles (talk) 16:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greywalls argument is that it is akin to the HuffPo or Forbes contributors where there isn't editorial oversight in a meaningful way.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:24, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For purposes of centralizing the discussion, could you comment at the RS/N discussion rather than here, Chubbles?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't exactly say for certain, but what would help is if you could explain their editorial policy with citations directly supporting it. Graywalls (talk) 05:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls I will note that this isn't really possible with a lot of even reputable music sources. I should search and see if they've ever issued corrections, that's a good way to tell if a source is reliable. I did email IVM and I'm waiting to hear back. Whether they will respond, I don't know. 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 10:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still waiting to hear back from the website/Brandon Jones about the policy, but, I was able to determine that they do issue corrections and edits: [1], [2], [3], [4].--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at https://www.indievisionmusic.com/author/brandon-j/ it sure seems like a self published source. My personal take on it is that it can't be used to support notability and it's more like bands and blogs cheering and praising each other. Graywalls (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've brought this question up years ago (I believe regarding Doug Van Pelt of HM), the founder/publisher of a source can also be an author for it. I'll see if I can find that discussion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the discussion. I searched for "Doug Van Pelt" and "John DiBiase" (of Jesus Freak Hideout, which I also searched for) in several different talk pages and noticeboards. If I didn't name drop them, which seems to be the case, then I don't think I'll ever find the discussion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:45, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"like bands and blogs cheering and praising each other." - that's not truly accurate, as the site does hand out negative reviews. It's not a simply promotional site.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed update to WP:BAND to not override WP:GNG

Per this discussion, I am formally proposing an update to WP:BAND, which can be viewed here. The proposal can be voted on here.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:20, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No Clean Singing, Teeth of the Divine, Metal Underground, The Metal Onslaught

I've started a discussion at WP:RS/N regarding these sources and if they are reliable. Input at that discussion would be appreciated, please.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Timbuk 3

Timbuk 3 needs a major revamp and cleanup.

The band is defunct, so per fair use we could probably put an image in.
I think all the band members except Pat MacDonald should be merged/redirected, as none seem to be independently notable and one has had a two sentence stub since 2006.
No info on what the band members are up to now?

Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 22:17, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:Hip hop music § Requested move 23 November 2024

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Hip hop music § Requested move 23 November 2024. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page edit assist

Hey! Created a page on Imagine Dragons song Take Me To The Beach. It’s my first page, and I would love for it to be approved. If someone could please help edit it to make it better/more likely to be approved, that would be much appreciated…

Draft:Take Me To The Beach (Imagine Dragons song)ImagineDragonsFan101 (talk) 01:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision has an RfC

Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy review of a draft?

Hey! Would someone mind checking out this draft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Taylon_Hope (attached link as well)

Thank you! Palmetto252 (talk) 18:16, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend reorganizing per the guidance at WP:LEAD. Much of your intro should probably be repurposed into a "History/Background" sort of section, and then rewrite the intro so that it only summarizes the article body content. Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Symphony of Heaven AfD

Since participation is lacking, I thought I'd publish the AfD here. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Symphony_of_Heaven Graywalls (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

music credits

when we write or make new document of singer's albums or songs, there's sometimes producers list. how do y'all find producers credits? i tried Discogs, Spotify, Apple Music etc but i still couldn't find the way how to check them. also i wanna know how y'all find songwriters) credits & genre credits. Arismauve (talk) 05:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arismauve Tidal will usually list them. If it's albums, I usually consult the physical liner notes. You can often find those at Discogs.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you can't find documentation at any of those sites, try to see if you can find it in a press release or review article. And at that point you're out of luck if you can't find anything.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:15, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hello! thanks for your reply. also can i refer other language wikipedia's information? and i usually check producers or release date by genius.com, but i remember someone said it's not a reliable source.

i searched Discogs, and i just entered like Mariah's 4th album Merry Christmas, i can't find any producers list. i tried it on other artist's "best" albums, which are popular. but still i couldn't find anything.. Arismauve (talk) 13:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arismauve On Discogs for that album, click the cover art it brings up the liner notes. I can see who the producers are.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can check other languages Wikipedias for leads/ideas of information, and you can take sources from them and add them to the English Wikipedia, but you can't use other Wikipedias (or any wiki/wikia) as a source directly per WP:USERG. Sergecross73 msg me 15:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a copyright issue if I copy it completely? Always appreciate for y'all helps! Arismauve (talk) 02:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arismauve no, if you're transcribing them into text that's perfectly fine --3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

wow, i didn't know about that. but i have to write like "brought from (wikipedia link)" in edit summary, right? Arismauve (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

nvm, i found 'em. Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia (i was right xd) Arismauve (talk) 03:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was reading this from mobile and missed the context of your question - yes, if copied from another Wikipedia, you need to attribute the content.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indie Vision Music has an RfC

Indie Vision Music, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RfC for the reliability of the publication as a source for music journalism. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed updates at Academy of Achievement

Proposed updates that include adding musicians that might interest members of this WikiProject: Talk:Academy of Achievement#New names for Academy of Achievement#Notable recipients of the Golden Plate Award Jarc12030 (talk) 18:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template splitting discussion

Started a discussion yesterday regarding Template:Morrissey singles and whether it should be separate. Unlikely to get much attention on a template talk page on its own so I figured I should just reach out for any responses I can get rather than letting it be between two people who probably won't come to a consensus on our own. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 10:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

There is a requested for comment in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ASCAP request

Hi WikiProject Music, I made a request for the ASCAP article that may be of interest to editors. Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer! Stephanie BINK (talk) 22:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Studio album standard

in here, what's the standard of Studio album and EP? Camilasdandelions (talk) 23:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In an artist's discography, all studio albums and EPs should be listed. Chubbles (talk) 12:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, how do y'all check whether this album is studio or EP? How do y'all differentiate? Camilasdandelions (talk) 12:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see - there's no hard and fast rule. If the artists identify the release as an EP, that's usually definitive; otherwise, as a rule of thumb, releases that are less than a half hour in length AND have eight tracks or fewer generally qualify as EPs. There are exceptions. Edge examples can be handled on a case-by-case basis. Chubbles (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, pretty much this. In most cases artists are pretty clear with the label, and we use that, per WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Sergecross73 msg me 15:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Do y'all count a studio album related to their release dates? If the studio album named "A" were released ij 2009, and "B" were released in 2010, then "A" is 1st studio album and "B" is the second? Camilasdandelions (talk) 05:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, though we also defer to sources in instances where some albums are considered "unofficial" parts of an artist's discography, e.g. the footnote in the lead of all of Björk's albums clarifying whether one counts Björk (album) or Gling-Gló. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also this brief discussion regarding Journals by Justin Bieber. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for your explanation.

so for sum, in Wikipedia we regard studio album as 8 + songs but there're some exceptions, like Lady Gaga's The Fame Monster.

if an artist once say it's an EP even though the album exceeds 8 songs, then it's being an EP. am i correct? :,) Camilasdandelions (talk) 09:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]