Talk:Canoe

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Definition of canoe

@Kanoniem: thank you for that clarification. I was simply trying to point out that the words "kayak" and "canoe" appear to be used differently in e.g. Britain and North America, whereas both articles began with the American definition and made no mention that other parts of the world may use the terms slightly differently. You clearly know more about canoeing than I do, so are in a good position to further refine these definitions. Bermicourt (talk) 13:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. please be aware that I did not make up my edits, but cited sources for my information. Bermicourt (talk) 13:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of that, but the Cambridge dictionary is really wrong in that respect.

This really is a difficult subject to describe correctly with the different interpretations of the word canoe, which is explained somewhat more on the Canadian canoe page.

Kanoniem (talk) 13:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should also cover the terminology questions here. Even if we don't change the scope of the article. North8000 (talk) 16:39, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is that what's going on here, an WP:ENGVAR issue? Because there are two images in this article, the "Whitewater slalom canoe" and the "Playboating decked canoe" that sure look like kayaks to my eye. I've never heard of an enclosed boat being considered a canoe. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, the "Whitewater slalom canoe" and the "Playboating decked canoe" are not considered to be kayaks in American and British view, because they are paddled kneeling with a single-blade paddle. And yes, that is somewhat illogical, but reality -- especially in competition. Kanoniem (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I guess that at least kind of makes sense. I go boating to relax, not to compete, so I was looking at boat shape alone. Incidentally there are images of (my) square-backed canoe at the article Scanoe if we want to use one here. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:11, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

This caption is likely wrong: “Innu building a birch bark canoe, Mi'kmaq camp, Matapedia, Quebec, Alexander Henderson, circa 1870, Canada” Why would an Innu man be building a canoe in a Mikmaq community? Those peoples are distinct. There are present-day Mikmaq First Nations in Gespe’gewa’gi but no Innu communities. The museum holding the original doesn’t say the man is Innu: https://collections.musee-mccord-stewart.ca/en/objects/168264/construction-de-la-membrure-dun-canot-decorce-campement-m?ctx=73422b2008ec4d10dbc51f177a2d7034f1f5131c&idx=19 134.41.86.92 (talk) 01:40, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology?...

According to the article (as currently written): "The word canoe came into English from the French word "casnouey" adopted from the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians language in the 1535 Jacques Cartier Relations translated in 1600 by the English geographer Richard Hackluyt."

But according to Wiktionary, the word actually comes from Proto-Arawak *kanawa, via Spanish "canoa."

I haven't researched this in any sort of depth, but Wiktionary's etymology seems much more likely and simpler and more straight forward. Modern French also has a similar word, apparently also from Arawak, via Spanish. -2003:CA:8728:D548:BFE5:4DE1:1F5:1472 (talk) 21:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good to point it out; now somebody needs to research it. North8000 (talk) 15:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had always thought it came from the French canot. I agree that a definitive answer will take some research. Uninvited Company 21:26, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Royalex

@UninvitedCompany: thanks for this edit, explaining why there are no Royalex canoes any more. I wondered about that. But it doesn't fully answer the question. Why was it discontinued by the manufacturer? -- P 1 9 9 ✉ 22:26, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a really good question and there's not a clear answer. What we know for sure is that Uniroyal introduced Royalex in 1970s and was making it in large sheets such that a canoe (perhaps more than one) could be made out of a single sheet. The production facilities changed hands a couple of times culminating in a buyout by PolyOne, n.k.a. Avient, in 2013. By then no one was using it for anything except canoes (sources, and our own article, are unclear on whether it ever had other widespread applications) and the market was, for what is essentially a plastics product, small. PolyOne discontinued the product and closed the facilities without providing a clear, detailed, public rationale for doing so beyond stating that it was a niche market product that didn't fit their ongoing business strategy. Usually when that sort of thing happens and the underlying product is profitable, it gets spun out. That didn't happen so we could speculate that some combination of marginal profitability, deteriorating production equipment requiring cash investment, environmental/regulatory problems, etc etc etc were contributing reasons. There's an article with some good sources at here. Another factor is that the low end of the canoe market was then in decline due to competition from inexpensive rotomolded kayaks, and the high end of the canoe market was moving more quickly to Kevlar. B-school types don't like middle-market products so that was surely a factor. But we only have speculation, no sources, for any of that. Uninvited Company 22:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's interesting that there's been a slight rebound in manufacture of aluminum canoes for livery use where weight is not a factor, and significant growth in the manufacture of Kevlar canoes. Wenonah canoes, manufactured not far from where I live, have seen a good deal of growth, having embraced Kevlar construction and become a market leader in that space. Meanwhile most of the middle of the market seems to have been lost to cheap kayaks. There's still some manufacturing of fiberglass canoes, and a few alternative materials that are similar to Royalex. Uninvited Company 22:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UninvitedCompany: wow! Thanks for that comprehensive answer. Better hang on to your indestructible Royalex canoes! -- P 1 9 9 ✉ 14:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome! Neither of mine are actually Royalex. I have one that's wood and another that's made in a hybrid kevlar/fiberglass layup. Uninvited Company 17:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]